Public Meeting Regarding First Chicago and Banc One
Thursday, August 13, 1998
Transcript of Panel Nineteen
7 MR. REYES: I'm a politician. I was going to
8 borrow some time from some of the panel members,
9 but this is a full panel. I'm not saying that to
10 gain any more credibility. I'm just saying that.
11 Actually, it works against me, I think. We're
12 ready?
13 Well, my name is Tony Reyes, and I am the
14 executive director of a not-profit group called
15 Comite De Bienestar. Comite De Bienestar is a
16 nonprofit that dedicates itself to providing
17 housing opportunities for low-income minority farm
18 workers.
19 It's located in a city called San Luis,
20 Arizona. It's the border with Mexico. So, I mean,
21 we've got a lot of people there to help.
22 We've been doing that for the last fifteen
23 years. We have developed five subdivisions so far
24 with over 1,700 lots for the same number of
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1 families. There's over a thousand homes built out
2 in that area.
3 We have worked with Banc One over the
4 last few years, but essentially we started a
5 relationship with that bank when it was still Bally
6 National Bank in Arizona.
7 And as I was trying to get myself moved up
8 here in the panel system here, I was thinking about
9 the times that I was mayor and I had to testify
10 against the bank mergers.
11 And I remember testifying in the Senate
12 Committee for red -- you know, in red-lining of
13 banks. And I was saying, maybe I'm a little
14 confused, I should be in the other group.
15 But, no, this time I don't want to leave
16 any trace of doubt. I am testifying in favor of
17 this merger. You know, I've had my reservations.
18 And we can go on and bore you with details.
19 Suffice it to say that when Bally National
20 Bank and Banc One were going through the merger
21 process, I was really concerned that a lot of the
22 fears that past panel members have expressed
23 regarding the fact that a bank becomes so big that
24 it loses touch with its constituencies or, in this
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1 case, with its clients, that's going to happen
2 now and then.
3 But I'm happy to report, it didn't happen
4 in San Luis, Arizona. I don't know about other
5 areas, but in San Luis, Arizona, we've got nothing
6 but support and help from Banc One and its
7 officers.
8 Over the last couple of years, they
9 have loaned us over $10 million. Our last
10 subdivision is a 495-lot subdivision. We're
11 in construction now.
12 They've also loaned us money to begin a
13 multi-family development project for over a hundred
14 families, low income and very low income people.
15 So I'm really proud to say that that has been a
16 very, very good working relationship. On top of
17 that, I've actually gotten more support now than I
18 ever did before.
19 So I can sum this up by telling you we're
20 highly in support of this merger and we think and
21 hope that this will continue to be the case when
22 Banc One merges with First Chicago.
23 See, that was pretty cut and dry. And
24 thank you very much for allowing me to go first.
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1 I've got to catch a flight. I love Chicago, it's
2 been fun, but I've got to get back and it's a long
3 ways home. Thank you very much.
4 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Gigerich.
6 MR. GIGERICH: Yes. I'd like to thank the
7 Federal Reserve Board for today's opportunity to
8 speak with all of you.
9 My name is Larry Gigerich. I'm president
10 of Indianapolis Economic Development Corporation.
11 We are a 501(c)6 in Indianapolis structured with a
12 Board of Directors of about 50 members.
13 Our primary mission in Indianapolis is to
14 serve the residents and businesses of our region.
15 Our primary responsibility is to foster the
16 creation of new jobs, the retention of existing
17 jobs and attraction of new business and, most
18 importantly, capital investment into our area.
19 One of the things that is important to
20 us and has been throughout the history of our
21 organization is the relationship that we've had
22 with Banc One and First Chicago NBD.
23 Previous to those organizations, their
24 predecessors, American Fletcher National Bank and
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1 Indiana National Bank, were also very active in our
2 economic development efforts in Indianapolis.
3 One of the things that has been of
4 particular importance is their support on the
5 Center City Economic Development projects.
6 They have helped us finance some of the
7 most complicated economic development projects in
8 the Center City. They have helped us significantly
9 with Brownfield Redevelopment Projects in some of
10 our most challenged neighborhoods.
11 And they've also worked with us on a
12 number of projects in our downtown core that have
13 provided significant number of job opportunities
14 for the residents of the Center City.
15 One of the things that we've been doing
16 with them in particular recently is looking at
17 opportunities to bring high technology businesses
18 into our community. And it's important to note
19 that both banks have been active supporters of us
20 launching this effort.
21 We have taken the approach in Indianapolis
22 under the Mayor's leadership of utilizing high
23 technology as the vehicle for our Center City
24 residents to be able to move into jobs that provide
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1 good pay but, most importantly, family wage jobs
2 that they can raise their families.
3 And we view technology as the key for the
4 Center City residents to move up economically in
5 our community. And that's something that we think
6 has been a unique approach. And the banks have
7 been very supportive both financially and with
8 their volunteer and staffing efforts for this
9 project.
10 One of the things also that has occurred
11 with the bank's strong support and leadership,
12 we've reversed the trend in Indianapolis of a
13 number of businesses fleeing our inner city, moving
14 out to our suburbs.
15 In fact, we have brought a number of
16 businesses from our suburbs into our downtown and
17 Center City area. And that's been of particular
18 importance to our economy.
19 And I would note that our unemployment
20 rate currently is about 2.4 percent, but in our
21 Center City it is down to about 6 percent. And
22 just a few years ago, it was much higher. It was
23 close to 20 percent in our Center City.
24 And as a result of the bank's strong
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1 support of our efforts, we've been able to really
2 tackle some of the most difficult areas of our
3 community for redevelopment purposes.
4 Just a couple other things I'd like to
5 note. One of Indianapolis' greatest strengths has
6 been the public private partnership philosophy that
7 we've had in Indianapolis.
8 And the predecessors at Banc One and
9 First Chicago NBD were original founders of our
10 organization in 1983, over 15 years ago. Since
11 that time and even with those acquisitions, their
12 support has been even stronger in Indianapolis.
13 But in particular, I'd like to note two
14 statistics. In those 15 years, we've been able to
15 attract $10 billion of investment to our city and
16 create and retain over 150,000 jobs.
17 The banks and their leaders have served as
18 the -- on our executive committee for Indianapolis
19 Economic Development Corporation, but have been
20 very strong leaders with all of our initiatives
21 and, in particular, with our organization.
22 A couple final things I'd like to touch
23 on. One of them is we had a project in downtown
24 Indianapolis, the Circle Center Mall Project, that
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1 had been on the books for about 15 years.
2 And four years ago, the Mayor and the
3 leaders of Banc One and First Chicago NBD and a
4 handful of other businesses were able to pull that
5 complicated project and its financing together.
6 And as a result, we now have a
7 $300 million mall and about a thousand jobs that
8 are there, many of which have been provided for
9 Center City residents.
10 So I appreciate the opportunity to be here
11 today. We fully believe the support will continue
12 from these banks. And we had the same concerns in
13 our community fifteen years ago that have been
14 voiced today. And not only had those concerns been
15 unfounded, but the support of those banks after the
16 acquisitions of the original entities have been
17 even stronger in our community. Thank you very
18 much.
19 MS. SMITH: Thank you. Mr. Lewis.
20 MR. LEWIS: My name is Cornelius Lewis. I'm
21 one of the founders and the president of a company
22 called Gulf Coast BIDCO, located in Baton Rouge,
23 Louisiana. The acronym, BIDCO, B-I-D-C-O, stands
24 for Business and Industrial Development
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1 Corporation.
2 Some people are familiar with them. There
3 are not that many of us around. BIDCO is very,
4 very prominent in the state of Michigan. Well,
5 we're in Louisiana.
6 We also happen to be a certified community
7 development financial institution. In fact, we're
8 the only CDFI certified in Louisiana as of today to
9 the best of our knowledge.
10 Gulf Coast BIDCO is a minority-owned,
11 for-profit financial institution, nondepository
12 financial institution. And we are engaged in
13 the business of providing mezzanine or growth
14 capital to small businesses in Louisiana in need of
15 such financing for be it expansion, modification or
16 growth purposes. Periodically, we will do a
17 start-up too.
18 We're designed to basically fill the
19 moderate-risk moderate-return void or capital void
20 that exists between bank financing and what is
21 historically high-risk high-return capital that's
22 generally provided by venture capitalists around
23 the country.
24 We've been in business and began
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1 operations in September of 19 -- I'm sorry, in
2 January of 1995, and we've been doing quite well.
3 The thing that makes Gulf Coast BIDCO
4 unique -- and I'm not going to dwell too much on
5 what we do, but I think it has a lot of bearing on
6 how Banc One fits into this -- we are very, very
7 flexible or have the ability to exercise a great
8 deal of flexibility in the types of financing
9 structures or methods that we can employ to
10 accommodate the needs of small businesses in
11 Louisiana, including, as I think the gentleman
12 Mr. Reid from the Southern Dallas CDC mentioned,
13 subordinated debt and equity that is direly needed
14 by small businesses so that they can, in fact,
15 become bankable in dealing with traditional
16 lending sources.
17 Gulf Coast BIDCO raises money, its own
18 capital, to reinvest in small businesses through
19 one of two means. One is either through equity,
20 individuals as well as institutions and others
21 investing in Gulf Coast BIDCO by buying stock in
22 our company or debt.
23 In terms of our relationship with Banc
24 One, Banc One is today the largest nongovernment
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1 institutional investor in Gulf Coast BIDCO.
2 We initially approached Banc One back in,
3 I think it was 94, 1994, when its predecessor bank
4 in Louisiana was Premier Bank.
5 We spent the time and the money in
6 developing a private placement memorandum or an
7 offering and a very, very sound business plan and
8 what we believed to be a sound management team and
9 approached the Banc One or Premier Bank at the
10 time.
11 And they were our initial institutional
12 investor and led the charge of assisting us in
13 enticing other institutional investors.
14 Today, as I mentioned, they are the
15 largest nongovernmental institution investor in
16 Gulf Coast BIDCO with approximately $1.8 million in
17 our company.
18 The reason they invested is because they
19 realized that there were a substantial number of
20 small businesses in Louisiana that have weathered
21 the -- that had weathered the storm of the
22 recession in the 1980s that Louisiana experienced
23 as a result of a decline in oil prices and that
24 these companies were still poised -- or they were
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1 poised and mature and ready to go and were in need,
2 dire need, of growth capital.
3 But the bank also realized that in many
4 instances the type of capital that these types of
5 companies needed, banking institutions
6 traditionally don't provide. So, therefore,
7 there was a need for an alternative financing
8 vehicle to accommodate this need. And Gulf Coast
9 BIDCO exercised the wisdom and foresight to
10 invest in us.
11 I've got one minute left. Well, I was
12 going to cite some examples.
13 We invest in rural as well as urban
14 communities. I think the problems in Louisiana
15 have been well, well documented. We are all --
16 most of the time 49th and 50th in the wrong
17 categories.
18 But as a result of Gulf Coast BIDCO and as
19 a result of our partnership with Banc One, we've
20 been able to accommodate and make some serious end
21 roads in assisting small businesses in Louisiana,
22 which ultimately will reduce the unemployment
23 levels and poverty levels throughout the state of
24 Louisiana.
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1 So with that, I'm here for the record to
2 endorse and strongly support this merger and
3 hopefully it will go through. I cannot see where
4 it can be of any harm to the state of Louisiana
5 and, in particular, Gulf Coast BIDCO. Thank you.
6 MS. SMITH: Okay. Next, I have Ms. Vaughn.
7 MS. VAUGHN: Thank you. I'm Vicky Vaughn. I'm
8 the vice president of Enterprise Social Investment
9 Corporation. I'm here today representing the
10 Enterprise Foundation, which is our parent
11 organization.
12 The Enterprise Foundation is here today to
13 testify in support of Banc One's proposed merger
14 with First Chicago NBD.
15 I'm pleased to have this opportunity to
16 talk about our partnership with Banc One, which we
17 feel has been very productive in producing
18 thousands of units of affordable housing across the
19 country.
20 The Enterprise Foundation is a national
21 nonprofit housing and community development
22 organization launched in 1982 by Jim and Patty
23 Rous. Enterprise works with more than a thousand
24 community-based organizations in more than 300
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1 locations to make America's low-income communities
2 a better place to live and to work.
3 Our mission is to see that all low income
4 people in the United States have the opportunity --
5 can you hear me -- for fit and affordable housing
6 and to move up and out of poverty into the
7 mainstream of American life.
8 Through the use of the Federal low-income
9 housing tax credit, our subsidiary, the Enterprise
10 Social Investment Corporation, or ESIC, has raised
11 more than $2.5 billion in equity, which is helping
12 to produce approximately 55,000 units of affordable
13 housing nationwide.
14 Besides investing directly in affordable
15 housing through their subsidiary bank, the Banc One
16 CDC and Banc One Capital as examples, Banc One has
17 been an important partner of the Enterprise
18 Foundation's work, investing nearly 37 and a half
19 million dollars in national and regional equity
20 funds managed by ESIC.
21 To date, Banc One's equity commitments in
22 their marketplace, including Texas, Illinois, Ohio,
23 Colorado, are greater than $15 million and will
24 play a part in producing nearly 5,000 units of
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1 affordable housing in 61 different projects.
2 These funds target a variety of project
3 investments within Banc One's market, including
4 housing for senior, for families and for persons
5 with special needs and projects located in
6 disadvantaged neighborhoods.
7 Banc One has been particularly supportive
8 of ESIC's work with nonprofit organizations that
9 sponsor and develop special needs housing and
10 provide innovative services to communities.
11 For example, Banc One invested in the
12 Renaissance at Concord Plaza Project, which is
13 located in Lakewood, Colorado. This is a project
14 that was developed by a nonprofit called the
15 Colorado Coalition for the Homeless.
16 It will provide 25 units that are targeted
17 as transitional housing for homeless individuals
18 and families and 50 units to working families who
19 earn as little as $10,000 a year.
20 This project will provide supportive
21 services to the tenants, including case management
22 and access to programs such as substance abuse
23 programs, job training programs and child care.
24 As another example, Banc One has played an
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1 integral part in supporting the work of the
2 Cleveland Housing Network. They have invested
3 through our equity funds more than $4 million in
4 the Cleveland Housing Network's lease purchase
5 program.
6 In this program, single family homes
7 throughout the city of Cleveland are rehabbed using
8 financing from the sale of the low-income housing
9 tax credit. These houses are then rented to
10 families for as little as $175 a month. After the
11 tax credit compliance period, these tenants have
12 the opportunity to buy their home.
13 This opportunity for home ownership could
14 be very difficult to achieve for these tenants but,
15 otherwise, this program does provide that
16 opportunity.
17 In addition, there are more than a
18 thousand units through this lease purchase program
19 that have been rehabilitated, making a substantial
20 difference in neighborhoods throughout the city of
21 Cleveland.
22 Banc One has also provided some grant
23 support to several local offices of the Enterprise
24 Foundation, including the Dallas -- our Dallas and
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1 Cleveland offices.
2 These offices work closely with local
3 nonprofits providing training and technical
4 assistance to nonprofits that are providing
5 affordable housing in their communities.
6 We greatly value our relationship with
7 Banc One, applaud the bank's commitment to
8 affordable housing, its creativity and approach and
9 their outreach in their communities.
10 We look forward to developing our
11 partnership and building upon the positive impact
12 the partnership between the Enterprise Foundation
13 and Banc One has had on communities. Thank you.
14 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
15 Ms. Werkmeister.
16 MS. WERKMEISTER: Good afternoon. My name's
17 Wendy Werkmeister, and I'm the president of the
18 Wisconsin Women's Business Initiative Corporation.
19 And I learned this afternoon that -- oh,
20 it got loud. I learned this afternoon that I have
21 been working in the middle of a doughnut hole for
22 12 years that's the heart of Milwaukee.
23 But the thing that the gentleman failed to
24 comment upon is that now they sell those doughnut
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1 holes individually and that they cost a lot more
2 and the profit margins are much higher than regular
3 doughnuts. So just food for thought, maybe Banc
4 One wants to jump on a little bit quicker than some
5 of the other banks.
6 What we do at our organization is impact
7 lives. And we do that on an economic basis. We're
8 a statewide economic development corporation. And
9 we started nearly ten years ago with a twofold
10 mission.
11 One is to provide quality business
12 education and training, and the second is to
13 provide access to capital.
14 We're able to deal with anybody in the
15 state of Wisconsin, tall people, short people, big
16 people, little people. However, we focused our
17 efforts specifically on women and on people of
18 color and on the poor.
19 Banc One has been a partner since day
20 one. So in our piece of the world in Wisconsin and
21 my work with them in terms of microenterprise
22 development and entrepreneurship and small business
23 development, they've been a true partner.
24 Banks, I believe, need to do what they
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1 need to do best and they need to do it
2 resourcefully and then they need to partner with
3 organizations such as ours and many others in the
4 room to do what they do best and allow them with --
5 to provide resources to enable them to do that.
6 The resources that I'd like to just
7 highlight briefly here for testimony are really
8 three; people, time and money.
9 In terms of money, Banc One has been very
10 significant in helping us fund loan loss reserves
11 that we've been required to fund through SBA
12 microloans programs.
13 They've also provided specific donations
14 and sponsorships of our training programs and other
15 pilot programs that we've tried to develop and have
16 successfully implemented in the state of
17 Wisconsin.
18 More recently, they were one of the very
19 first to become involved in a pilot program through
20 the SBA. We are one of the very first microlenders
21 through the SBA program about seven years ago.
22 Now, it's a permanent program. We've
23 borrowed over $2 million from the SBA. We are one
24 of 10 agencies to be allowed to be in a pilot
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1 program where you could borrow this money directly
2 from a bank and then SBA would guarantee it. Banc
3 One was first in line. And last year, we closed a
4 loan for about $720,000 with Banc One. That was
5 the very first deal Banc One did and we're very
6 proud to be part of that in Wisconsin.
7 And I think that, knock on wood, all those
8 little deals in Milwaukee from a hundred dollars to
9 25,000 will do well and we'll pay all that money
10 back to Banc One.
11 In terms of time, Banc One has really, in
12 my mind, given unprecedented time in terms of
13 listening to what microcredit is about and
14 fostering programs in the state and providing
15 advocacy on behalf of microcredit and
16 microenterprise development and how their bank can
17 be a part of it. That's not only been locally, but
18 it's been regionally.
19 They've also listened to us and provided
20 guidance and advice on managing our loan portfolio,
21 on utilizing new loan portfolio management systems,
22 and also on providing coverage of how they do
23 things through their loan-by-phone programs and
24 other programs that they have at Banc One.
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1 In terms of people, they've provided
2 individuals to be speakers at our classes, of which
3 we have approximately 250 every single year and see
4 over 2,500 people throughout the year in different
5 business training classes.
6 They've provided bankers as mentors,
7 mentors as consultants and also loan executives for
8 three-month periods where these individuals are on
9 Banc One payroll but working for us for the sake of
10 the cause.
11 So I'd like to say that I do fully
12 recommend Banc One's merger. I only see with
13 greater capacity that they'll be stronger and be
14 able to do more of what they're already doing.
15 Thank you for letting me share those few words.
16 MS. SMITH: Thank you. And now, we will go to
17 Mr. Pacheco.
18 MR. PACHECO: Thank you, Ms. Smith,
19 Mr. Alvarez, Ms. Williams, for letting me speak
20 today.
21 My name is Leroy Pacheco. I'm president
22 and CEO of ACCION Chicago. We're a nonprofit
23 microlender. We make small business loans from
24 $500 to $25,000 throughout the Chicago area.
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1 We are an affiliate of ACCION
2 International, who has been lending money in Latin
3 America for over 35 years. Last year alone, they
4 lent out $500 million to 340,000 people. Average
5 loan was $891 with a payment rate of 99 percent.
6 Let me tell you what we're doing here in
7 Chicago thanks to our friends at First Chicago
8 NBD. Since 1993, First Chicago provided the seed
9 money to start ACCION Chicago.
10 Since that time, we have lent close to
11 $2 million throughout the Chicago area to over 300
12 businesses with a payment rate of 98.5 percent.
13 First Chicago Bank has provided us over
14 $200,000 in grants since we began the operations in
15 1993 and currently we have about $175,000 in lines
16 of credit for specific initiatives.
17 We right now have initiatives for the
18 south and west sides of Chicago for African
19 American loans.
20 I can tell you today that we have almost
21 $100,000 in African American loan businesses that
22 are thriving and doing very well.
23 We create jobs. We impact communities.
24 Banc One has also been a very important player for
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1 our ACCION office in Texas, in San Antonio, Texas.
2 We have been taking people off welfare.
3 We have been creating jobs. If you all know where
4 a little village is, La Vita on the west side, the
5 second highest business revenue generating street
6 in Chicago behind the Magnificent Mile is 26th
7 Street.
8 We are very proud to be there, and thanks
9 to First Chicago, we are very glad that they have
10 made a big impact in that area.
11 We have chocolatiers, tree trimmers,
12 contractors, store owners, medical transcription
13 services, sculptors, artists, bookkeepers. We lend
14 to anybody who has a good idea and is willing to
15 work. And thanks to First Chicago, we've been
16 allowed to do that.
17 The major investment First Chicago has
18 done, I believe, over the last four or five years
19 helping us is their investment in people.
20 ACCION Chicago is chaired by Mary Decker
21 from First Chicago Bank. Our loans are handled by
22 Ed Jacobs from First Chicago Bank, our lines of
23 credit. We have four individuals who mentored in
24 our businesses from First Chicago bank on their own
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1 time and volunteered hundreds of hours.
2 We have another First Chicago, Dory
3 Flores, who sits on our External Loan Committee.
4 They do it on their own time after hours, before
5 hours and do it because they want to.
6 I always tell people that banks have
7 stockholders, we have stakeholders. And we enjoy
8 our relationship.
9 First Chicago bank, I believe, services
10 the community of Chicago not just by putting up ATM
11 machines. They invest people and they invest
12 money.
13 We are very, very pleased to be a partner
14 with First Chicago, and we think that it makes
15 great sense, and it has attracted other lenders.
16 We now have close to $2 million in our loan fund
17 for small businesses throughout the Chicago area.
18 Facts that are ignored do not cease to
19 exist. First Chicago has been working in this
20 doughnut hole that you heard about for a lot of
21 years. We are very pleased to be a partner with
22 them.
23 It's everybody's job, not just the banks';
24 community service, activists, aldermen, ourselves
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1 to donate when we have time to -- I always say
2 healthy businesses can give. If I can provide a
3 business with the money that they need and their
4 equipment isn't broken down, they don't have to
5 worry about their employees, they can donate to the
6 Chamber of Commerce, they can join the YMCA, they
7 can become a mentor, they can become a part of a
8 church. Healthy businesses can give back to the
9 community, and ACCION Chicago is a definite example
10 of that.
11 First Chicago Bank and Banc One are doing
12 something about the business attitude and the
13 climate in Chicago. They're not just talking about
14 it. They're doing something about it. And ACCION
15 Chicago is here to tell you that with partners like
16 this, it makes great sense, good financial sense
17 and good community sense for this merger.
18 Thank you very much.
19 MS. SMITH: Thank you.
20 And I want to take this opportunity to
21 thank you and to thank all of the witnesses who
22 went before you for the views and perspectives that
23 you have shared with our panel and thank you for
24 your patience.
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1 I believe that is the final panel, unless
2 we had any unscheduled speakers who have indicated
3 that they would like to present testimony. But
4 unless I see some hands going up, I will adjourn
5 this public meeting. And thank you again.
6 (Whereupon, proceedings in
7 this cause were adjourned.)
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1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
2 ) SS:
3 COUNTY OF W I L L )
4
5 JEANETTE A. SANDEI, being first duly
6 sworn, on oath says that she is a court reporter
7 doing business in the City of Chicago; and that she
8 reported in shorthand the proceedings of said
9 hearing, and that the foregoing is a true and
10 correct transcript of her shorthand notes so taken
11 as aforesaid, and contains the proceedings given at
12 said hearing.
13
14 ______________________________
15 Certified Shorthand Reporter
16
17 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
18 before me this______day
19 of________________1998.
20
21
22 _______________________
23 Notary Public
24
411
McCORKLE COURT REPORTERS, INC.
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS - (312) 263-0052
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
2 ) SS:
3 COUNTY OF K A N E )
4
5 BRENDA S. TANNEHILL, being first duly
6 sworn, on oath says that she is a court reporter
7 doing business in the City of Chicago; and that she
8 reported in shorthand the proceedings of said
9 hearing, and that the foregoing is a true and
10 correct transcript of her shorthand notes so taken
11 as aforesaid, and contains the proceedings given at
12 said hearing.
13
14 ______________________________
15 Certified Shorthand Reporter
16
17 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
18 before me this______day
19 of________________1998.
20
21
22 _______________________
23 Notary Public