Public Meeting Regarding Norwest Corporation and Wells Fargo & Company
Thursday, September 17, 1998
Transcript of Panel Three
64 1 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you. Any 10:19:16 2 questions? If not, we had tentatively scheduled a 10:19:18 3 break, but if we have the witnesses for the next 10:19:20 4 panel, then I'd like to go forward with Panel No. 3. 10:19:26 5 We're going to start with Ms. Erickson. 10:20:48 6 7 MS. ERICKSON: Thank you. I appreciate 10:20:54 8 the opportunity to speak with you today. I think 10:20:54 9 it's unfortunate that the meeting is only a daytime 10:20:58 10 meeting. We do have an awful lot of low income 10:21:02 11 people who are affected by banking activities and 10:21:04 12 mergers such as this. It would have been nice if we 10:21:08 13 could have had potentially more participation from 10:21:12 14 them with later hours. 10:21:14 15 This merger will create the seventh largest 10:21:18 16 bank in the country. They will have banking 10:21:22 17 operations in 21 states, and yet this is the only 10:21:24 18 hearing. I frankly wonder, where are the anti-trust 10:21:30 19 forces in this? I see a terrible, terrible trend in 10:21:34 20 this country of mergers in the consolidation of 10:21:38 21 power over all sorts of very basic needs for people, 10:21:42 22 banking being only one of them. Medicine, food, 10:21:46 23 communications, everything is becoming very 10:21:48 24 consolidated and it's to the detriment of the 10:21:52 25 people. 10:21:54 65 1 We have a number of members who are not able to 10:21:56 2 be with us here today, representatives from Chicago, 10:21:58 3 from Denver, Colorado, our national president Maude 10:22:02 4 Hearn, from Boston. The airline pilots' strike has 10:22:10 5 prevented their making it here; however, I would 10:22:14 6 like to say that we support the airline pilots' 10:22:16 7 strike in their principles of having their 10:22:20 8 concessions made back and compensated for now that 10:22:22 9 the company is thriving. 10:22:26 10 Mega-mergers destroy competition and foster 10:22:28 11 collusion and price fixing in an endless spiral 10:22:30 12 upwards. This is great for greedy shareholders 10:22:32 13 salivating over stock market gains. Their gains are 10:22:38 14 consumers' losses. Is this rewardable behavior? 10:22:40 15 Someone mentioned earlier competitive fees. 10:22:46 16 That's kind of an odd phrase, I think. What is a 10:22:50 17 competitive fee? Now to me as a consumer, a person 10:22:52 18 who has to pay fees, I think a competitive fee is a 10:22:56 19 low fee, and when a bounced check costs $2.68 for 10:23:00 20 the bank, I think a competitive fee for bounced 10:23:06 21 checks would be five bucks -- that's a hundred 10:23:08 22 percent almost profit -- but the bounced check fees 10:23:10 23 keep going up and up. What's this competitive 10:23:16 24 market for, is it consumers or is it shareholders? 10:23:20 25 Who profits from these activities? 10:23:24 66 1 The Federal Reserve has a responsibility to 10:23:26 2 protect the American people, to stop the unchecked 10:23:30 3 and unconditional urge to merge. While HR-10 is 10:23:32 4 giving banks the freedom to diversify and therefore 10:23:38 5 control even more of our economic activities, 10:23:40 6 mergers at the same time remove diversity of choice 10:23:44 7 from consumers. If that's not enough, they also 10:23:48 8 have attacked credit unions, trying to regain what 10:23:52 9 paltry six percent of the market they control. 10:23:56 10 We demand that their performance improve in our 10:24:00 11 neighborhoods. Norwest is the largest mortgage 10:24:04 12 company in the United States, and yet they are 10:24:06 13 behind the national average in their loans to people 10:24:08 14 of color. To African-Americans, Asians, Latinos, 10:24:10 15 and Native Americans, Norwest made a smaller 10:24:14 16 percentage of its loans than the national averages. 10:24:18 17 Almost 16 percent of all home loans made by all 10:24:22 18 lenders in the country were made to people of color, 10:24:24 19 but Norwest made only 10.5 percent of their loans to 10:24:26 20 people of color, way below the national average. 10:24:32 21 Even in the Twin Cities, where Norwest Corporation's 10:24:34 22 headquartered and where they are by far the largest 10:24:36 23 mortgage lender, they are below the average of all 10:24:40 24 lenders. Norwest made a similar percentage of loans 10:24:44 25 to people of color than the average of all other 10:24:48 67 1 lenders in the cities. 10:24:50 2 When we look at where Norwest made their loans, 10:24:52 3 they are once again below the average of all Twin 10:24:54 4 Cities lenders in the percentages of their loans 10:24:58 5 made to low to moderate income neighborhoods, and 10:25:00 6 the percentages of their loans made in integrated 10:25:02 7 and minority neighborhoods. 10:25:06 8 A representative earlier said something to the 10:25:08 9 effect that banks will not be healthy when 10:25:10 10 communities are struggling. Isn't this a little bit 10:25:12 11 of a cart before the horse argument? Is this why 10:25:14 12 it's hard for us to get banks to be operating in 10:25:16 13 neighborhoods like Phillips? When it comes to 10:25:20 14 rejecting minorities, Norwest is way above other 10:25:22 15 lenders in the Twin Cities. Norwest rejected 10:25:26 16 African-Americans almost three and a half times as 10:25:30 17 often as they rejected whites. 10:25:32 18 In the Twin Cities Norwest is especially bad 10:25:34 19 compared to other major banks here. US Bank, 10:25:36 20 formerly First Bank, and Twin City Federal. US Bank 10:25:40 21 and TCF each made more 5.5 percent of their home 10:25:44 22 purchase loans to African-Americans, while Norwest 10:25:48 23 made only two percent of their loans to 10:25:50 24 African-Americans. US Bank and TCF each made more 10:25:54 25 than 13 percent of their home purchase loans to 10:25:58 68 1 people of color, but Norwest only made six percent 10:26:00 2 of their loans to people of color. US Bank and TCF 10:26:02 3 each made more than -- each made more, about 18 10:26:06 4 percent of their home purchase loans, to low and 10:26:12 5 moderate income neighborhoods, but Norwest made only 10:26:14 6 nine percent of its loans in these neighborhoods. 10:26:16 7 Why reward this racist, classist performance? 10:26:20 8 Is no one accountable? What is exactly your 10:26:24 9 responsibility toward the American people? Have you 10:26:26 10 any? 10:26:36 11 12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you very much. 10:26:38 13 We will go to Ms. Whitfield. 10:26:38 14 15 MS. WHITFIELD: My name is Marilyn 10:26:42 16 Whitfield. I'm a board member of Minnesota ACORN, 10:26:44 17 and the co-chair for North Minneapolis Chapter of 10:26:46 18 ACORN. 10:26:48 19 In city after city we find the same pattern 10:26:48 20 that Norwest, the largest mortgage company in the 10:26:52 21 country, is below other lenders in their loans to 10:26:54 22 minorities and in low income neighborhoods, but 10:26:58 23 above other lenders in their denials of 10:27:00 24 African-Americans, Latinos, and Asians, in Austin, 10:27:02 25 Texas, Albuquerque, Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, 10:27:08 69 1 Denver, Des Moines, Duluth, Minnesota, Houston, Las 10:27:12 2 Vegas, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Newark, New Orleans, 10:27:18 3 Oakland, Philadelphia, Phoenix, St. Louis, and in 10:27:22 4 Washington, D.C. What is Norwest going to do about 10:27:28 5 this? 10:27:30 6 Wells Fargo just announced that if the merger 10:27:32 7 is approved, it is going to lend $5 billion a year 10:27:34 8 in California to minorities and low income customers 10:27:38 9 for small businesses, mortgages and community 10:27:42 10 development. Why can't Norwest do the same thing in 10:27:44 11 Minnesota and other states? Other communities need 10:27:48 12 to be developed just as in California. People in 10:27:50 13 Minnesota also need help with small businesses and 10:27:54 14 community development. 10:27:58 15 In another recent merger, Nations Bank/Bank of 10:28:00 16 America committed to lend $35 billion a year to 10:28:02 17 minority and low income customers. Why can't 10:28:06 18 Norwest do the same thing? 10:28:10 19 After all these years of being here, Norwest is 10:28:10 20 moving their headquarters to California. They're 10:28:14 21 going to lay off a lot of employees and pocket huge 10:28:16 22 savings. What do the people of Minnesota get out of 10:28:22 23 it? We want Norwest to put some money back into the 10:28:24 24 community. 10:28:28 25 70 1 MR. ASH: Thank you. My name is Jordan 2 Ash, the loan counseling director for ACORN. I 10:28:34 3 apologize, my testimony is sitting on my kitchen 10:28:34 4 table, so I frantically was trying to reconstruct 10:28:36 5 it. I apologize if I stumble a little bit. 10:28:40 6 I'm the director of the loan counseling program 10:28:46 7 for Minnesota ACORN. The home buyer education 10:28:46 8 counseling program, there's a couple components to 10:28:52 9 it. One is that we work with banks to help them 10:28:52 10 improve their lending records by developing loan 10:28:56 11 products that are more realistic to help low and 10:28:58 12 moderate income people buy a house, such as lower 10:29:02 13 down payment closing costs, more flexible credit 10:29:04 14 guidelines, using alternative credit, counting -- 10:29:08 15 being more flexible in counting income. We also 10:29:10 16 promote home ownership by going out every day into 10:29:14 17 low income neighborhoods and talking to renters 10:29:16 18 about the benefits of home ownership, and that it is 10:29:18 19 possible. And, finally, that we have provided 10:29:20 20 one-on-one counseling to people to help them qualify 10:29:24 21 for loans, address credit problems, help them 10:29:26 22 understand that -- the process, and also have some 10:29:30 23 seminars and classes to help people understand the 10:29:32 24 general process of buying a house. 10:29:36 25 Because it's known in the community that 10:29:36 71 1 through ACORN and the programs that we work with and 10:29:38 2 the banks that we work with, which is four of the 10:29:42 3 five major banks in the Twin Cities, except for 10:29:44 4 Norwest, because it's known that you can buy a house 10:29:46 5 through ACORN with a thousand to $15 hundred total 10:29:50 6 for your down payment and closing costs, people call 10:29:52 7 us up a few times a week and say don't you help with 10:29:54 8 down payment and closing costs? I'm closing next 10:29:58 9 week; I need $3,000 to buy a house. I heard that 10:30:00 10 you help with that. We say no, we don't help with 10:30:04 11 it. We've negotiated with banks, developed programs 10:30:04 12 where the banks provide the assistance. And in 10:30:06 13 talking and trying to figure out about their 10:30:08 14 situation, you might ask, well, who are you going 10:30:10 15 through? And invariably they'll say, Norwest. 10:30:14 16 As was said earlier, Norwest is the largest 10:30:16 17 mortgage company in the country. They're the 10:30:18 18 largest in the Twin Cities with 20 percent of all 10:30:20 19 loans. So most people are going through Norwest, 10:30:24 20 but they're calling us saying can you help with the 10:30:26 21 down payment? And why is that? Because Norwest 10:30:28 22 provides less assistance for down payment and 10:30:30 23 closing costs than all the other major banks in the 10:30:34 24 Twin Cities. TCF, US Bank, Firstar, and Marquette 10:30:36 25 all provide much more assistance than Norwest. 10:30:40 72 1 There's some other problems with Norwest's 10:30:44 2 underwriting guidelines, which are -- to the problem 10:30:46 3 when they're, again, the biggest mortgage company in 10:30:48 4 the country and in the Twin Cities. Their debt 10:30:50 5 ratio is only 34 percent when all the other programs 10:30:52 6 are 41 percent. If you have what they count as 10:30:56 7 long-term debt, if you have a car payment, in order 10:31:00 8 to look at it and you're qualifying, they count 10:31:02 9 long-term debt as anything less than two months. 10:31:06 10 All the other programs count long-term debt as 10:31:08 11 anything less than ten months. It's ironic that 10:31:12 12 Norwest would penalize people that have large debts 10:31:14 13 because one of the reasons that they have these 10:31:16 14 large debts is because they've got car payments, 10:31:18 15 very high interest car payments through Norwest 10:31:22 16 subsidiaries. 10:31:24 17 It was mentioned earlier about Norwest's 10:31:26 18 helping -- working and helping people fix their 10:31:28 19 credit. Well, we believe that Norwest actually 10:31:30 20 profits more from people's bad credit and does more 10:31:32 21 damage to people's credit than any of the seminars 10:31:36 22 that they can hold. Norwest has contributed to the 10:31:38 23 existence in the United States of two separate and 10:31:42 24 very unequal financial systems: one for the rich and 10:31:46 25 one for the poor. As mainstream banks shut out low 10:31:48 73 1 income blue collar and minority customers, a fringe 10:31:52 2 economy has emerged of pawn shops, check cashing 10:31:54 3 stores and finance companies to fill the credit 10:31:58 4 void. With their high interest rates and 10:32:00 5 unnecessary credit insurance fees, these shadow 10:32:02 6 banks have generated greater profit margins than 10:32:04 7 even the largest banks. 10:32:06 8 In 1994, Norwest purchased a company called 10:32:10 9 Community Credit, so don't confuse it with Consumer 10:32:14 10 Credit Counseling, which is a very fine 10:32:16 11 organization. Community Credit is exactly the 10:32:18 12 opposite. It's a consumer loan company that targets 10:32:22 13 people with low incomes or bad credit. Community 10:32:24 14 Credit has 79 offices in 15 states. Soon after they 10:32:26 15 bought Community Credit, Norwest acquired two other 10:32:30 16 companies: City Side Savings, which doesn't help 10:32:32 17 people save any money, and Fidelity Acceptance, 18 which is not at all loyal, doesn't have any fidelity 19 to its customers. 20 According to a St. Paul Pioneer Press article 10:32:40 21 last year, Norwest is no stranger to the boom in big 10:32:42 22 risk, big reward consumer lending. It's Norwest's 10:32:46 23 financial unit, of which Fidelity will soon be a 24 part, was doing sub-prime net lending long before 25 Wall Street and several big banks bet on it in 10:32:54 74 1 recent years. So Norwest saw it, they saw the money 10:32:56 2 that could be made from taking advantage of people's 10:32:58 3 bad credit, and they jumped on it. They're smart. 10:33:02 4 That's why they make over a billion dollars' profit 10:33:04 5 a year. 10:33:04 6 According to -- again to quote the article, 10:33:06 7 they discovered what Norwest has known for years: 10:33:10 8 lending money to riskier borrowers can yield big 10:33:10 9 profits. Norwest Financial is consistently 10:33:14 10 Norwest's most profitable unit without suffering 10:33:16 11 ugly buildup of bad loans. It's a myth that there's 10:33:20 12 a higher risk in lending to -- that they are losing 10:33:22 13 money. They routinely, these consumer finance 10:33:26 14 companies that Norwest owns, routinely make more 10:33:28 15 profits and have a larger return on their assets 10:33:32 16 than the banks do. The average rate on Norwest 10:33:34 17 Financial's consumer loans was 21.22 percent in 10:33:38 18 1996. Compare this to what it would cost you if you 10:33:40 19 had a loan from Norwest Bank, which is right now 10:33:44 20 around 8 percent, can be more than double from just 10:33:46 21 another Norwest subsidiary. 10:33:50 22 And when Norwest turns someone down for a car 10:33:50 23 loan, they don't refer them to Consumer Credit 10:33:54 24 Counseling, they don't tell them about a seminar on 10:33:56 25 debt management or on money management. What they 10:34:00 75 1 do is refer them to Community Credit, and they've 10:34:02 2 acknowledged that they do this. They give customers 10:34:04 3 the number for Community Credit to get a car loan at 10:34:06 4 21 percent. We've even had instances where somebody 10:34:08 5 got a call at home, unsolicited, from Community 10:34:12 6 Credit, saying I heard you need a loan. Do you have 10:34:16 7 any collateral that you could use for it? 10:34:18 8 While Norwest has acknowledged this is a common 10:34:22 9 practice, they have failed to reply to our requests 10:34:26 10 about if there is a reciprocal relation; that is, 10:34:28 11 why can't customers be referred from Community 10:34:30 12 Credit to Norwest? They're the same company. If it 10:34:32 13 works one way, why can't it work the other? 10:34:36 14 Especially if they pay their car loan on time, why 10:34:38 15 can't it be refinanced through Norwest? Why can't 10:34:40 16 there be a program set up like that? 10:34:42 17 Well, Norwest actually keeps people trapped in 10:34:44 18 the fringe economy by thwarting customers' efforts 10:34:48 19 to re-establish their credit. As a general policy, 10:34:50 20 Community Credit does not report its loans to a 10:34:52 21 credit bureau. So even if a customer is making 10:34:54 22 their payments on time on that car, thinking well, I 10:34:58 23 need a car to get to work, I'll take the 21 percent 10:35:00 24 interest, I'll pay it on time, and eventually I will 10:35:02 25 be able to build up my credit better, they're not 10:35:04 76 1 building the new credit that they think they are, 10:35:06 2 which would allow them to eventually refinance or 10:35:08 3 receive a more favorable interest rate from a bank. 10:35:12 4 And Community Credit is, however -- it's not that 10:35:14 5 they don't work with the credit bureaus ever, 10:35:16 6 because they're very quick to report it to the 10:35:18 7 credit bureau if you default on a loan. The only 10:35:20 8 explanation for this that we can think of is that 10:35:22 9 the companies, Community Credit and other companies 10:35:24 10 in Norwest Financial, want to keep a captive 10:35:28 11 customer base. They don't want people to be able to 10:35:30 12 get lower interest rates, they don't want people to 10:35:32 13 be able to pay off their balance early, and they 10:35:34 14 want them to have to return to them again and again 10:35:38 15 for financing, repeat customers. And, in fact, when 10:35:38 16 Norwest acquired City Side Savings just last year, 10:35:42 17 which did report customers' on-time payments to the 10:35:44 18 credit bureau, they merged it into Community Credit, 10:35:48 19 and all of a sudden, the reporting of City Side's 10:35:50 20 customers' on-time payments abruptly stopped. 10:35:52 21 When we are doing our loan counseling and we 10:35:54 22 meet with somebody and we do their credit report, 10:35:56 23 we'll see they have a loan from City Side Savings, 10:35:58 24 and all of a sudden it says 10-97, and that's just a 10:36:02 25 date of last activity -- what are we now, 8-98 -- 10:36:06 77 1 just ends. All of a sudden on the credit report it 10:36:08 2 just ends. Thank you very much. 10:36:10 3 4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Mr. Bennett. 10:36:16 5 6 MR. ASH: We have a transparency, first of 10:36:22 7 all, to this. 8 9 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you. 10 11 MR. ASH: Where do we do that? 10:36:24 12 13 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: If you'll hand it to 10:36:26 14 Cassandra, and we'll put it into the record. 10:36:28 15 Mr. Bennett, if you'll start. 10:36:36 16 17 MR. BENNETT: My name is Alton Bennett, 10:36:38 18 and I'm the chair of the Banking and Housing Chapter 10:36:40 19 of Minnesota ACORN. I'm also a member of Minnesota 10:36:42 20 ACORN Board, I'm association board member, and I'm 10:36:44 21 the national treasurer. 10:36:50 22 A couple occasions Congress has expressed its 10:36:52 23 concern about the credit needs of low and moderate 10:36:56 24 income people in low and moderate income 10:36:58 25 neighborhoods. As a matter of fact, they've even 10:37:02 78 1 gone as far as to say that banking services are 10:37:04 2 essential for these types of neighborhoods to 10:37:06 3 survive. That is generally what leads the spirit of 10:37:06 4 CRA, the Community Reinvestment Act, that says that 10:37:12 5 banks must meet the credit needs of their entire 10:37:14 6 service area, specifically low and moderate income 10:37:18 7 people, not just the wealthy. 10:37:20 8 I wonder about products that take advantage of 10:37:22 9 low and moderate income people, and one of those 10:37:24 10 things is the checking accounts. I think everybody 10:37:26 11 can understand the importance of having a checking 10:37:30 12 account in your day-to-day activities, but we have 10:37:32 13 an example here that really truly brings the 10:37:34 14 experience of most of the people that we have dealt 10:37:38 15 with when it comes to Norwest. Norwest has raised 10:37:40 16 its bounced check fees twice -- at twice the rate of 10:37:46 17 inflation. In 1996, Norwest charged $12 for a 10:37:50 18 bounced check. In 1995, it had gone up to $21, and 10:37:52 19 this summer Norwest increased the fee again up to 10:37:58 20 $25, making it the highest bounced check fee in the 10:38:00 21 Twin Cities. 10:38:04 22 We have figures from the banking industry that 10:38:04 23 show that the real cost of a bounced check is about 10:38:06 24 $2.68. Norwest has denied this figure. They say 10:38:10 25 they have no idea how much it costs, but I wonder, 10:38:12 79 1 since they've raised it from 21 to 25 and they have 10:38:16 2 no idea how much it costs, how do they make the 10:38:20 3 decision to determine whether it should go up from 10:38:22 4 21 to 25? That's just always been curious. But, 10:38:24 5 anyway, they don't know how much it costs. 10:38:28 6 With us they can make so much money from 10:38:30 7 bounced checks, Norwest does things to get people to 10:38:34 8 bounce even more checks. They're the only major 10:38:36 9 bank in the Twin Cities that clears customers' 10:38:40 10 largest checks first. We have an article here that 10:38:42 11 shows that this is a practice among banks designed 10:38:44 12 solely to increase profit. Norwest says that they 10:38:48 13 do it because the customers' preference in a survey. 10:38:52 14 But Norwest refused to show us the survey. How was 10:38:54 15 the questions asked? Who were the customers that 10:38:58 16 they surveyed? I find it very difficult that they 10:39:00 17 would -- to believe that they would ask a customer 10:39:04 18 would you rather us charge you much more money to 10:39:06 19 process your largest check so that we can make a lot 10:39:10 20 more money off of it in order -- than do it the 10:39:14 21 other way in processing things as they come in? I 10:39:18 22 just can't believe that that would be the case. I'd 10:39:22 23 like to see a real-life example of a Norwest 10:39:26 24 customer who was affected by the policy clearing the 10:39:28 25 largest check first. 10:39:30 80 1 In this case, on April 30th -- and that 10:39:32 2 transparency is up there -- there were four checks 10:39:36 3 that come through. By putting the biggest check 10:39:38 4 through first, the one for $20.72, Norwest caused 10:39:40 5 three smaller checks to bounce. The customer was 10:39:44 6 then charged $63 for the overdraft -- for 10:39:48 7 overdrafts, each of which was under $10. If Norwest 10:39:50 8 had cleared them by check number or from smallest to 10:39:54 9 largest, the three smaller checks which totaled 10:39:58 10 $19.73, would have been paid instead, and only the 11 largest check would have bounced. 10:40:02 12 It is also worth noting that on May 1st, the 10:40:04 13 same day that she was charged $63, the customer had 10:40:08 14 two SSI checks directly deposited in her accounts 10:40:12 15 that regularly happened at the first of the month. 10:40:14 16 Now, Norwest says that people can avoid those 10:40:18 17 charges simply by getting overdraft protection. 10:40:22 18 Well, there's two problems with that. Number one, 10:40:26 19 people don't know about the overdraft protection 10:40:28 20 because Norwest doesn't advertise it, and when they 10:40:30 21 do apply for it, if they know about it, they get 10:40:32 22 turned down. The woman in this example had just 23 been turned down for overdraft protection the same 10:40:36 24 month that she was approved by our housing 10:40:38 25 counseling program for a loan. I think that's 10:40:44 81 1 pretty particularly interesting. 10:40:48 2 Two years ago we met with Norwest about this 10:40:50 3 problem. We proposed a program that would make it 10:40:52 4 easier for low income people to qualify for 10:40:54 5 overdraft protection. Norwest refused to do 10:40:58 6 anything about it. We have found that when people 10:41:00 7 bounce a check, it is not something that they did 10:41:02 8 deliberately. Most of the time it is an honest 10:41:04 9 mistake or it happened in a narrow period of time 10:41:06 10 between when the person's -- when people deposit a 10:41:10 11 check and when they credit that deposit to that 10:41:12 12 account. So there is no real overdraft protection. 10:41:16 13 Norwest has said that the customers shouldn't 10:41:20 14 be surprised when they have bounced checks because 10:41:22 15 customers are told about these fees and policies. 10:41:26 16 In fact, the federal law requires the bank to give 10:41:28 17 new customers information about bank fees and funds 10:41:30 18 available policy, but that is not the case in 10:41:32 19 Norwest. Last summer we did a testing program. We 10:41:36 20 sent in 28 people to open checking accounts at 10:41:38 21 Norwest. Of those 28 people, six people were given 10:41:42 22 the information required by law, six were given some 10:41:44 23 but not all the information, and a larger majority, 10:41:48 24 16, were given nothing at all. We currently have a 10:41:52 25 lawsuit against Norwest over these violations. 10:41:54 82 1 There are other bank fees that are of concern 10:41:58 2 to us. One thing -- one of these things we want to 10:42:00 3 know is what happens to Norwest's checking account 10:42:04 4 and savings account, what will happen to them this 10:42:06 5 summer? Wells Fargo stopped honoring checks, free 10:42:10 6 checking accounts for senior citizens who have been 10:42:14 7 customers at First Interstate, Wells Fargo's last 10:42:16 8 merger. Now these seniors must either use Wells 10:42:22 9 Fargo basic ATM checking account, which has a 10:42:24 10 five-fifty a month fee and requires customers to do 10:42:28 11 all their banking at ATM, or Wells Fargo's 10:42:30 12 Stagecoach checking account, which costs $9 a 10:42:34 13 monthly fee. What protection will there be for 10:42:36 14 senior citizens in the future? 10:42:40 15 16 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you very much. 10:42:42 17 Are there any questions from the panel? If not, 10:42:44 18 thank you very much for coming this morning. We are 10:42:48 19 scheduled for a ten-minute break, and I would remind 10:42:52 20 attendees that if you happen to go outside the 10:42:58 21 building, you will need your badge to get back 10:43:02 22 inside and will need to go through the security 10:43:06 23 check-in once more. So we'll see you in about ten 10:43:08 24 minutes. 10:43:14 25